Hole foods?

This hurts me. I have good friends at Whole Foods. But now I have another reason not to shop there. If you are a progressive and you are shopping at Whole Foods, you are feeding a high-priced machine that violates many of your personal principles. Please join me in shopping elsewhere. And just so you know what soapbox your hard-earned dollars are funding, consider this from Whole Foods CEO John Mackey in the Wall Street Journal.
The last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment. :: Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That’s because there isn’t any. This “right” has never existed in America.
A careful reading of both documents will not reveal any intrinsic right to education either. I'm guessing Mr. Mackey would like to do away with public schools, too. Stop shopping at Whole Foods. Period. And make sure they know why. Mr. Mackey is certainly entitled to his opinion. And you're entitled to take your business elsewhere.



I'm sure Whole Foods has done a lot of good in a lot of ways, but I would love for their current CEO to be replaced. Mackey's presumption that the magical markets can cure all ills has no basis in reality. 

James, he is pretty much out of the picture already. The board of directors and regional presidents run Whole Foods.

using his CEO soapbox to piss off his core customer base? 

I go to Fresh Market in Glen Lennox instead of Whole Foods, simply because it is more convenient from where I live and where I frequently drive.  I fear that Fresh Market, a supposed competitor to Whole Foods, won't make it.  They just don't have many customers.

Ever since I became an Internet hermit, I'm WAY out of the loop. I didn't even know there was a Fresh Market in Glen Lennox. 

I live in downtown Chapel Hill, and I didn't know this existed either.  I'll check it out.


I never see any organic produce at Fresh Market.  If they had it, I'd go there, even at the risk of being recognized.Pity about the Hole Foods CEO being so divorced from what most of his clientele believe.  It just goes to help further prove that business people are not necessarily any smarter than anybody else, and are vastly overpaid for no good reason.  

Mackey has been CEO at Whole Foods FOREVER. and neanderthal Republican as well.Cam 

I understand the minuses in shopping at Whole Foods, but the people who work there still live in this community. The business still supports the local community through contributions to groups like Friends of Bolin Creek.  How do we differentiate between the beliefs of a corporate CEO and the actions of the local store? My personal choice is to shop there IF I am on that side of town and in need of groceries. Mostly though, I shop at Weaver Street.

It's a dilemma, which prompted me to write this at my other blog.

I like that thought experiment. The other question I would pose is does it really matter? Do the beliefs of any CEO/corporate office have a direct impact on local business? I haven't bought Exxon gas since 1989, and I don't think it's made a whit of difference to Exxon's corporate office. Probably doesn't matter to local stations either, but it makes me feel better. I don't think I can say the same thing about Whole Foods. I'm absolutely positive they are counting on my occasional business. :~)  And I know that I can get a large bottle of olive oil for a much better price than at Weaver Street and I trust it's quality more than what I would get at HT. I sincerely hope my needs for affordable, quality olive oil don't derail discussions on affordable health care options.

isn't a long walk or drive from Whole Foods. Where does Food Lion, Harris Teeter, Lowes Foods, and the like stand?  Or have they taken no stance?  I only ask, because a boycott will be ineffective if we switch our business without knowing where our new business partners stand.

I have always considered Whole Foods as upscale. A place in Chapel Hill to show your Volvo, BMW or Prius. It seems to do fantastic business at Elliot Plaza. Parking lot is always full. Fantastic produce, fruit and meat.....incredible prices. We've never bought our groceries there other than a few stray items.I had a salad bar takeout today up in Hillsborough at Weaver Street...$15. One apple, $2.14......ok, it was fantastic and large.Whole Foods where my son lives in Maryland is the same deal, but with more Benzes than Volvos.Food Lion, Harris Teeter, Lowes are all big corporations, or owned by big corporations. I suspect few of their CEO's are Ben & Jerry types.I patronize the businesses I can afford. I've been very poor about matching my principles with my wallet. My sainted mother-in-law would not own stock in a "war" company or one that paid low wages to its workers. Remember those times?I'm with you Jim, but please don't tell me if Dunkin Donuts' CEO is a major donor to Americans For Prosperity. 

There is one big thing missing from this thread and that is the proof that  doing what that Whole Foods CEO says we should do will hurt instead of help.  Now remember, as a result of the Bill Strom thread we're no longer allowed to make conclusions based on circumstantial evidence and reasoning and logic.  Insrtead, we have to have direct proof.  We can't infer from his actions what was Bill Strom's intent, and similarly we can't use any kind of evidence or reason to conclude whether any particular health care plan would have a certain effect.  We have to have actual proof.  Unless the US has actually undergone Plans A and B, in the same time frame, any conclusions about which plan is better are invalid.I realize that this is a ridiculous, PITA (pain in the ass) approach to things, but keep in mind that I am not the one that started it but rather I am just perpetuating an approach created by others.

The solution to your dilemma, in this case, is experimentation. As I wrote here, a boycott is not a lifelong commitment. It may have some desirable results if enough people take action ... and of course it could have revenge effects and come back to haunt humanity for eternity.  We never know the real impacts of actions until we take those actions ... which is good reason to think ahead and try not to do really stupid things.  It's a lesson I've yet to learn, but I'm working on it. :)

The insurance for-profit health care system is a failure.

No one should profit off of some one else's suffering. it's just wrong.

Oh, so now you want evidence instead of proof.  I provided evidence, albeit circumstantial, that Bill Strom pissed on the voters of CH and at that time you required proof instead.  But of course that would require someone reading his mind.  Now you just want evidence when you want to advance a cause you believe in. There is no proof that any health care plan is better than any other.  Even if it were possible to run two identical societies on two different plans and compare the results, and it's not, that wouldn't prove that the plan that did better would do better in the future because the society it operates in changes constantly.Arguments using reason can be made with supporting evidence marshaled etc..  That is how arguments about politics typically work.  And it's a good process.  Except for when someone that doesn't want to take the time to craft an argument or who has insufficient evidence to support it basically tells others either to offer "proof" their case to an impossible level or else shut up.

The proof you seek on American health care is available.  One place to start your search is Phil Longman's book, which relates his assignment to find the best health care.   http://www.amazon.com/Best-Care-Anywhere-Health-Better/dp/0977825302  A Washington Montly article on which the book is based is here:  http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

Similarly, we have evidence that government-owned, -sponsored, -mandated, or -supported enterprises are doomed as well (see: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, USPS, Medicare, Social Security).  Hence the need to avoid a public option at all cost. 

Maybe we should consider the failure of the private sector in the health care industry as evidence that this is an area the private sector can not manage at least to the benefit of those that require heath care.Hmmm, let me see..  Medicare 1.5 to 3 percent overhead.  Private insurance 20% overhead. Afraid of a government bureaucrat, how about the insurance bureaucrat paid to finds ways to deny you care.  Or how about the fact the insurance company has no measure on improving the heath of their customers other than to only insure those who do not need it and drop anyone who does.  The only measures of success have to do with profit per patient.  Is your health more important or the pushing of product such as the most expensive drugs or the need to keep hospital beds full, the operating rooms operating and the scanners humming.   The last thing the heath care is about is your heath.  This does not mean there not dedicated doctors nurses and technicians but its far more about keeping the revenue/profits flowing and increasing. Let the private sector make flat screen TV's.  They are real good at that.  The heath care industry?  Not so much as of yet...   We spend the most per ca pita and get the worst results...  Hmmmm  

Medicare claims a 2 to 5% overhead but even that is disingenuous since they don't count all of the cost. Just like congress, the costs are moved off budget and therefore not included. The government is not very good at cutting cost of any program they run, they just have the ability to lie about it unlike a private company. If an insurance company tried to rig their accounting the way that Medicare does, the CEO and the CFO would go to jail. Medicare imposes an almost endless number of unfunded mandates, rules, and regulations on medical providers that consume vast swatches of time and resources that impose huge cost that are passed on to patients and taxpayers, but Medicare does not book. Talk to your doctor and ask him or her about Medicare's regulatory nightmare. Be prepared for him to unload a ton of frustration.Surely nobody could think seriously that we've had a free market in health care since the advent of Medicare / Medicaid  was enacted to provide for us from cradle to grave.

My doctor's one complaint was low reimbursements.  However, he said that Medicare was the least hassle to deal with and reimbursed faster than any private insurance company.  For his practice,  Medicare posed the least administrative costs.   In addition he spent loads of time explaining to private insurers why his proposed or provided treatments were medically necessary so that his practice or his patient did not get stuck with the bill. He did not have go through that with Medicare.  However, the whole system is driving primary care doctors out of business.  New doctors do not want to go into primary care and we have a real shortage.  Medicare only provides to those over 65.  Medicaid is only for the very absolute least financially able among us.  What is this cradle to grave stuff?  Every other industrialized nation but the USA provides conception to grave care. The administrative costs and that doctors have to spend to deal with all these private insurers is a huge drain on the health care dollars are not even included in the 20% that private insurers pay on administrative costs.  Some doctors have decided not to accept any insurance at all but provide care at greatly reduce rates.  It also means that anyone that walks into the office gets charged the same.  If you walk into most doctors' offices as uninsured you will be charged the highest rate and you will pay up front. What a kludge.

I might point out that low reimbursements is a form of expense for the doctor, any any short fall would force a doctor to increase income from private sources.Here is some of what we would face in the legislation ;• Sec. 113, Pg. 21-22 of theHealth Care (HC) Bill MANDATES a government audit of the books of ALL EMPLOYERSthat self-insure in order to “ensure that the law does not provide incentivesfor small and mid-size employers to self-insure”!• Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16- YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!• Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILLBE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.• Sec. 142, Pg. 42 - The HealthChoices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!• Sec. 152, Pg. 50-51 - HC willbe provided to ALL NON-US citizens.• Sec. 163, Pg. 58-59 beginningat line 5 - Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances& a National ID health care card will be issued!• Sec. 163, Pg. 59, Lines 21-24- Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic fundstransfer.• Sec. 164, Pg. 65 is a payoffsubsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & communityorganizations (ACORN).• Sec. 201, Pg. 72, Lines 8-14- Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private plans under governmentcontrol.• Sec. 203, Pg. 84 - Governmentmandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the exchange.• Sec. 203, Pg. 85, Line 7 -Specifications of benefit levels for plans means that the government willdefine your HC plan and has the ability to ration your health care!• Sec. 205, Pg. 95, Lines 8-18- The government will use groups (i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps) to “inform andeducate” (sign up) individuals for government plan.• Sec. 205, Pg. 102, Lines12-18 - Medicaid-eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled inMedicaid. No freedom to choose.• Sec. 223, Pg. 124, Lines24-25 - No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “administrativeof judicial review” against a government monopoly.• Sec. 225, Pg. 127, Lines 1-16- Doctors – the government will tell YOU what you can make. “The Secretaryshall provide for the annual participation of physicians under the publichealth insurance option, for which payment may be made for services furnishedduring the year.”• Sec. 312, Pg. 145, Lines15-17 - Employers MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan.• Sec. 313, Pg. 149, Lines16-23 - ANY employer with payroll $400,000 and above who does not providepublic option pays 8% tax on all payroll.• Sec. 313, Pg. 150, Lines 9-13- Businesses with payroll between $251,000 and $400,000 who do not providepublic option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.• Sec. 401.59B, Pg. 167, Lines18-23 - ANY individual who does not have acceptable care, according togovernment, will be taxed 2.5% of income.• Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1 -Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay fortheir health care.)• Sec. 431, Pg. 195, Lines 1-3- Officers and employees of HC Administration (government) will have access toALL Americans’ financial and personal records.• Sec. 441, Pg. 203, Lines14-15 - “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes,it says that.• Sec. 1121, Pg. 239, Lines 14-24 - The governmentwill limit and reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income andpoor are the ones affected.Sec. 1121, Pg. 241, Lines 6-8- Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have; you’ll all be paid thesame. “Service categories established under this paragraph shall apply withoutregard to the specialty of the physician furnishing the service.”• Sec. 1122, Pg. 253, Lines10-23 - The government “validates work relative value units” (sets value ofdoctor’s time), professional judgment, methods etc. (defining the value ofhumans).• Sec. 1131, Pg. 265 - Governmentmandates and controls productivity for private HC industries. “IncorporatingProductivity Improvements into Market Basket Updates that Do Not AlreadyIncorporate Such Improvements.”• Sec. 1141, Pg. 268 - Thegovernment regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.• Sec. 1145, Pg. 272 -Treatment of certain cancer hospitals: Cancer patients and their treatment areopen to rationing!• Sec. 1151, Pg. 280 - Thegovernment will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable readmissions(incentives for hospital to not treat and release).• Sec. 1151, Pg. 298, Lines9-11 - Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in areadmission and the government will penalize you for that action.• Sec. 1156, Pg. 317, Lines13-20 - “PROHIBITION on physician ownership or Investment.” Government tellsdoctors what/how much they can own.• Sec. 1156, Pg. 317-318, Lines21-25, 1-3 - “PROHIBITION on Expansion of Facility Capacity.” The governmentwill mandate that hospitals cannot expand (“number of operating rooms orbeds”).• Sec. 1156, Pg. 321, Lines2-13 - Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community inputrequired.• Sec. 1162, Pg. 335-339, Lines16-25 - The government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures.Rationing.• Sec. 1162, Pg. 341, Lines 3-9- The government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part B),HMOs, etc. This will force people into a government plan.“The Secretary may determinenot to identify a Medicare Advantage plan if the Secretary has identifieddeficiencies in the plan’s compliance with rules for such plans under thispart.” • Sec. 1177, Pg. 354 -Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people! “Extension ofAuthority of Special Needs Plans to Restrict Enrollment.”• Sec. 1191, Pg. 379 -Government creates more bureaucracy – “Telehealth Advisory Committee.” HC byphone or the Internet – dial 1 for your health care advice?• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines4-12 - Government mandates Advance (Death) Care Planning consultation. ThinkSenior Citizens and end of life. END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING. SOME IN THEADMINISTRATION HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RATIONING HEALTH CARE FOR THE ELDERLY.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines17-19 - Government WILL instruct and consult regarding living wills and durablepowers of attorney. Mandatory end-of-life planning!• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425-426, Lines22-25, 1-3 - Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources,guiding you in death.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 427, Lines15-24 - Government mandates program for orders for life-sustaining treatment(i.e. end of life). The government has a say in how your life ends.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines 1-9- An “advanced care planning consult” will be used as patient’s healthdeteriorates.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines10-12 - “Advanced Care Consultation” may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans- from the government.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 429, Lines13-25 - The government will specify which Doctors (professional authority understate law includes Nurse Practitioners or Physician’s Assistants) can write anend-of-life order.• Sec. 1233, Pg. 430, Lines11-15 - The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at endof life, according to preset methods (not individually decided).• Sec. 1302, Pg. 468, Lines16-21 - “Community-Based Home Medical Services means a nonprofitcommunity-based or state-based organization.”• Sec. 1302, Pg. 472, Lines14-17 - PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION: One monthly payment to acommunity-based organization. Like ACORN?• Sec. 1308, Pg. 489 - Thegovernment will cover Marriage and Family therapy. This will involve governmentcontrol of your marriage.• Sec. 1308, Pg. 494-498 - Thegovernment will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating andrationing those services.• Sec. 1401, Pg. 502 - Centerfor Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. Big Brother is watching howyour treatment works.• Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines 13-19- The government will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronicmedical records. “The Center may secure directly from any department or agencyof the United States information necessary to enable it to carry out thissection.”• Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines21-25 - The government may secure data directly from any department or agencyof the US, including your data.• Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines21-25 - The “Center” will collect data both “published and unpublished” (thatmeans public & your private information).• Sec. 1401, Pg. 506, Lines19-21 - An “Appointed Clinical Perspective Advisory Panel” will advise TheCenter and recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.• Sec. 1401, Pg. 518, Lines21-25 - The Commission will have input from HC consumer representatives.• Sec. 1411, Pg. 524, Lines18-22 - Establishes the “Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund.” Moretaxes for ALL.• Sec. 1441, Pg. 621, Lines20-25 - The government will define “NEW Quality” measures in HC. Since whendoes government know about quality?• Sec. 1442, Pg. 622, Lines 2-9- To pay for the Quality Standards, government will transfer money from“qualified entities” (government Trust Funds) to other government Trust Funds.More Taxes.• Sec. 1442, Pg. 624, Lines19-23 - Qualified Entities: “The Secretary shall ensure that the entity is apublic, nonprofit or academic institution with technical expertise in the areaof health quality measurement.” • Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines 5-10- “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes and functional statusof patients.• Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines15-17 - “Quality” measures shall be designed to profile you, including race,age, gender, place of residence, etc.• Sec. 1443, Pg. 628 - Thegovernment will give “Multi-Stake Holders” pre-rulemaking input into selectionof “quality” measures.• Sec. 1443, Pg. 630-31, Lines9-24, 1-9 - Those Multi-Stake Holder groups include unions and groups likeACORN deciding what constitutes quality.• Sec. 1444, Pg. 632, Lines14-25 - The government may implement any “Quality measure” of HC services thatbureaucrats see fit.• Sec. 1444, Pg. 632-333, Lines14-25, 1-9 - The Secretary may issue nonendorsed “Quality Measures” for physicianand dialysis services.• Sec. 1251 (beginning), Pg.634 to 652 - “Physician Payments Sunshine Provision” – government wants toshine sunlight on Doctors but not government. “Reports on financialrelationships between manufacturers and distributors . . . and betweenphysicians and other health care entities.”• Sec. 1501 (beginning), Pg.659-670 - Doctors in Residency – government will tell you where your residencywill be, thus where you’ll live.• Sec. 1503 (beginning), Pg.675-685 - Government will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residencyprograms, including teaching hospitals.• Sec. 1601 (beginning), Pg.685-699 - Increased funding to fight waste, fraud, and abuse. (Like thegovernment with an $18 million website?)• Sec. 1619, Pg. 700-703 - Ifyour part of HC plan isn’t in the government’s HC Exchange but you qualify forfederal aid, you don’t have to pay.• Sec. 1128G, Pg. 704-708 - Ifthe Secretary determines there is a “significant risk of fraudulent activity,”on HC provider or supplier, the government can do a background check.• Sec. 1632, Pg. 710, Lines8-14 - The Secretary has broad powers to deny HC providers and suppliersadmittance into HC Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business. • Sec. 1637, Pg. 718-719 - ANYDoctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services isREQUIRED to be enrolled in, or eligible for, Medicare.• Sec. 1639, Pg. 721 -Government MANDATES that Doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certifypatient for home health services.• Sec. 1639, Pg. 723-24, Lines23-25, 1-5 - The same government certifications will apply to Medicaid and CHIP(Children’s health plan: Your kids).• Sec. 1640, Pg. 723, Lines16-22 - The government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification forpatient to ANY other HC service.• Sec. 1651, Pg. 734, Lines16-25 - Proposes, for law enforcement sake, that the Secretary of HHS will giveAttorney General access to ALL medical data.• Sec. 1701 (beginning), Pg.739-756 - The government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (and youhave to pay for them).• Sec. 1704, Pg. 756-761 - Thegovernment will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals(DSH) to states (your taxes).• Sec. 1711, Pg. 764 - Thegovernment will require preventative services - including vaccinations (nochoice).• Sec. 1713, Pg. 768 -Government-determined Nurse Home Visitation Services (Hello union paybacks).• Sec. 1713, Pg. 768, Lines 3-5- Nurse Home Visit Services – Service #1: “Improving maternal or child healthand pregnancy outcomes or increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.”Compulsory ABORTIONS?• Sec. 1713, Pg. 768, Lines11-14 - Nurse Home Visit Services include determinations of economic self-sufficiency,employment advancement and school-readiness.• Sec. 1714, Pg. 769 - Federalgovernment mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortionand government control intertwined.• Sec. 1733, Pg. 788-798 -Government will set and mandate drug prices, therefore controlling which drugsare brought to market. (Goodbye innovation and private research.) • Sec. 1744, Pg. 796-799 -Establishes PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will nowcontrol your doctor’s education.• Sec.1751, Pg. 800 - Thegovernment will decide which Health Care conditions will be paid. Can you say “RATION!”• Sec. 1759, Pg. 809 - BillingAgents, clearinghouses, or other alternate payees are required to register. Thegovernment takes over private payment systems too.• Sec. 1801, Pg. 819-823 - TheGovernment will identify individuals “likely to be ineligible” for subsidies.Will access all personal financial information.• Sec. 1802, Pg. 823-828 -Government sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Anotherbottomless tax pit.• Sec. 4375, Pg. 828-832, Lines12-16 - Government will impose a fee on ALL private health insurance plans,including self-insured, to pay for Trust Fund!• Sec. 4377, Pg. 835, Lines11-13 - Fees imposed by government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if theywere taxes.• Sec. 440, Pg. 837-839 - Thegovernment will design and implement Home Visitation Program for families withyoung kids and families that are expecting children.• Sec. 1904, Pg. 843-844 - ThisHome Visitation Program includes the government coming into your house andteaching/telling you how to parent!• Sec. 2002, Pg. 858 - Thegovernment will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000(That’s Billions).• Sec. 2201, Pg. 864 - Thegovernment will MANDATE the establishment of a National Health Service Corps.• Sec.2201 - “Fulfillment of Obligated Service Requirement” • Sec.2201, Pg. 864-875 - The NHS Corps is a program where Doctors perform mandatoryHC for 2 years for partial loan repayment.• Sec. 2212, Pg. 875-891 - Thegovernment takes over the education of Medical students and Doctors througheducation and loans.• Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - Thegovernment will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps to ensure an adequatesupply of public health professionals. • Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - ThePublic Health Workforce Corps shall consist of civilian employees of the UnitedStates as Secretary deems necessary.• Sec. 340L, Pg. 897 - ThePublic Health Workforce Corps shall consist of officers of Regular and ReserveCorps of Service.• Sec. 340M, Pg. 899 - ThePublic Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians. Will animals have heathcare too?• Sec. 2233, Pg. 909 - Thegovernment will develop, build and run Public Health Training Centers.• Sec. 2241, Pg. 912-913 -Government starts a HC affirmative action program under the guise of diversityscholarships.• Sec. 2251, Pg. 915 -Government MANDATES cultural and linguistic competency training for HCprofessionals.• Sec. 3111, Pg. 931 - Thegovernment will establish a Preventative and Wellness Trust fund, with initialcost of $30,800,000,000 (Billions more).• Sec. 3121, Pg. 934, Lines21-22 - Government will identify specific goals and objectives for preventionand wellness activities. More control of your life.• Sec. 3121, Pg. 935, Lines 1-2- The government will develop “Healthy People & National Public HealthPerformance Standards.” They will tell us what to eat?• Sec. 3131, Pg. 942, Lines22-25 - “Task Force on Community Preventive Services.” More government? Underthe Offices of Surgeon General, Public Health Services, Minority Health andWomen’s Health.• Sec. 3141, Pg. 949-979 - BIGGOVERNMENT core public health infrastructure includes workforce capacity, labsystems, health information systems, etc.• Sec. 2511, Pg. 992 -Government will establish school-based “health” clinics. Your children will beindoctrinated and you will be divorced from controlling your children's healthcare decisions!• Sec. 399Z-1, Pg. 993 -School-Based Health Clinics will be integrated into the school environment.More government brainwashing in school.• Sec. 2521, Pg. 1000 - Thegovernment will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you betracked? Read it here for yourself http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills... 

That's not what the bill says. Nice cutting & pasting from wingnut.com though.  

Sorry if this double posts, I forgot to log-in before posting the first time, opps! It's fairly easy to simply say that's not what it says, so you tell me where I'm wrong.I probably need to introduce myself. I was a Democrat from the time my father introduced me to politics when he actively supported J.F. Kennedy when I was in grade school. I put on the Democrat team colors and proudly supported some pretty terrible politicians. I power-posted on the Yahoo Political BB under the CDTyphoonSR moniker leading up to and during the 2000 elections in vigorous support of Al Gore and to this day I can not STAND Georgie Boy Bush. I continued to post on Yahoo through the failed Kerry election and continued to proudly wear my Democrat team colors.I am now waking up to this whole Us vs Them, left vs right  b.s. and am discovering that the problem is not with the Republicans nor the Democrats, the problem is with politicians in general. We are being ripped off and no one is looking out for you and me, we must take personal responsibility for our own lives, our own wealth and our own health and stop looking to the government to take care of us.The government that can give you everything you want and need is a government that can take it all away. 

This Google search shows links to lots of places this was clipped from verbatim.My favorite is from twitter! 140 character slugs of parroting:http://twitter.com/correctchangetwitter is even better than the internets! Al Gore invented them!

Now someone needs to go through and list every GOOD thing in the bill, rather than every paranoid misreading.

Section 113 only defines where and when there can be price differentials.Section 122 page 29 lines 4 through 16 merely define the limit on out of pocket expenses for an individual $5000) or a family $10,000 per annum.  There are annual cost of living adders allowed.  

4 (A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-shar5
ing incurred under the essential benefits pack6
age with respect to an individual (or family) for
7 a year does not exceed the applicable level spec8
ified in subparagraph (B).
9 (B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable
10 level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is
11 $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a
12 family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded
13 to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year
14 by the annual percentage increase in the Con15
sumer Price Index (United States city average)
16 applicable to such year. How one reads rationing in the above is beyond me.   By the way we ration today, through your private insurance and/or your ability to pay.  The truth is that heath care will always be rationed except for the very rich.  The extreme right does not want to admit that we have it today and many of us do not want to admit that there will be some form of rationing no matter what system we implement.   I have come to believe that when ideology becomes a religion ideological purity becomes more important than the solution.  All factual data and information is pushed through the prism of this ideology and bent to support the ideology or reflected back to ether when it can not be reconciled to the tenets of the ideology. By the way, this is only one bill of many.  There is no the one bill.   It would be nice to see it when we get it.

$5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family sounds like rationing to me. In a free market you have choices, you can go to another plan or you can opt out of any plan and make a personal savings account to pay for future medical expenses, or go live in a tee pee and eat natural foods and accept that healthy lifestyles result in healthy bodies if that's what you believe.The problem I have is this and other plans is it takes away our right to choose a different plan or no plan at all, this legislation will mandate that when you are a new hire, or want to make any changes to your plan that you sign up with one of the government plans and if you do not have a health plan the government will tax you, I think it's a 2.5% surtax penalty.I agree that the current solution is not affordable and is not working, my problem is that the proposed solution is even worse. I'd suggest that we identify the problems with the current situation and fix that, not surrender something as serious as our health to the government. If this program is so good, why doesn't congress want to become part of it? There was an amendment to the bill that would include our congress critters in the plan and it was thrown out. Congress critters have their own retirement plan and their own medical, anybody see a conflict here or is it just me?

If you think America doesn't currently ration health care, you are crazy.  We "ration" it to those with health coverage. 

The current system does ration healthcare and that is part of what I don't like about the system we have in place now.In a free market system the rationing would not be decided by an arbitrary central planning allocation but might be managed by the price and affordability. Over priced doctors and medical clinics not to mention over priced drugs would not be purchased by the general public and the price would quickly adjust downward to meet the price clearing point.The system we have now and the ones we are being sold by the politician is not going to control the upward spiral of the expense of healthcare. The special interest groups will pay whatever it takes to ensure their profits, the Republicans will take the money and so will the Democrats, you and I can't afford lobbyist so we will suffer either higher cost or reduced benefits or more than likely BOTH.The other reason costs will go up and services will go down is hidden within the way this startup is being financed with massive debt. The debt will be paid for with new money created out of thin air and that is highly inflationary. Inflation is not bad for everyone, the people who get to use the money first benefit greatly, for they get to use the new money before it drives up the prices of goods and services. The heavy handed cost of inflation is bore by the general public who have to suffer the high cost of increasing prices that inflation brings and have to pay with devalued money.So medical cost will continue to rise under the current system or the new system both are terrible. But the new system will control your access to pay for that rising cost, IMhO Thanks for the comments! 

Actually you get to one of the key core arguments on health care that separates well meaning folks: Market Behavior Its an argument that economists have been having for a long time. Your assertion implies to me that markets always behave rationally with every product and service in every circumstance.  If you are a market purist the market is an absolute.  I believe in markets to a point. It works very well with flat screen TV's and airline seats but not with heath care.

Please go on, I'm interested in learning your thoughts on why the purchasing of healthcare is different and outside the marketplace. How is visiting a doctor more sensitive than buying food. As I pointed out earlier, go without a doctor for 3 months and you not as likely to die as if you go without food for 3 months. Yet we have free market in something as important to life as our food source but healthcare is too special to entrust to the free market?

Actually I think it would be better for you to go on how purchasing an apple is like purchasing heath care or health care insurance or a bypass . Every time I look for the similarities I find more differences. I might even be able to have an apple tree and grow my own.  I can not give myself a bypass. I probably won't know I need one until I need it and I then need might need it within the next hour.  And I might not be able to afford a level of insurance that will pay enough of the bypass to keep me from going bankrupt if I survive or keep my family from going bankrupt even if I do not.  The three day vs three month argument is just absurd.  I may be able to get by on unhealthy foods or even scrounge for scraps for a year but at critical moments I can not get by without health care for even 10 minutes.  The need for food is a predictable line with a 0 slope. The need for health care can have intensely high spikes of an almost infinite slope. That comparisons are just ridiculous because food and health care are fundamentally different therefore have different behaviors.  To assume everything is the same and behaves in the same way just does not hold water. In addition I have said that we could do without a public option if the the insurance companies were put in a straight jacket along with some other major reforms.  The insurance companies would actually have to have an equal responsibility to the insured as they do to their stockholders.  But corporations are not suppose to work that way.  I am a stock holder in many corporations and I want them to make a profit.  However when it comes to my and my family's health I want my and their health to come before the profits and stockholders of a corporation.But as I said before, this at the core of the argument and I do not believe it is reconcilable as long as the extremes rule. Markets are neither evil or good but completely amoral but people can be both skewing market behavior.  Markets are capable of producing wonderful results.  They are also capable of producing disasters. So far the market place is producing a disaster for our heath care system.   So please go on and provide a grand theory of universality.

I will not even try to untangle your web of disinformation about the bypass and an apple and bankruptcy of your family or whatever.As far as going without food vs going without medical care, I did not say you could eat scrap food, I said no food vs no medical care, period. I stated it that way to put both on the same footing and your only answer was to dishonor the baseline facts in order to invent a new point. Clever, but still dishonest.You mistakenly presuppose that I like the present system, and I certainly do not. My not liking the present system does not equal liking this plan as a replacement anymore than not liking this new plan equals liking the present plan. We have not had a free market in healthcare in a long time, so to say that the free market has failed is nuts. We need to dump both plans (the one we have now and the Obama plan) and truly give the free market a chance.

The free market system works on the principle of supply and demand. But that system is also based on the assumption that what is being traded and/or marketed is a commodity. In economics a commodity is something that has definition and is roughly equal regardless of distributor. We can't say that about health care. Your claim that "Over priced doctors and medical clinics not to mention over priced
drugs would not be purchased by the general public and the price would
quickly adjust downward to meet the price clearing point," doesn't make any sense unless you wish to claim that health care is a commodity. Health insurance is a commodity and that's what is is being discussed at the national level.

Is food a commodity (see above)? Sure. Are prescription drugs a commodity? I think so, and generics play an important roll.Is a doctor's visit a commodity, of course not. It is a service, an important service to many. Is a visit to see an attorney a commodity, nope. Then why not have national legal care, to some people this might be a life changing service, maybe even life saving. I covered food above as a necessity and being a commodity, but given that you and I could take responsibility for our health by living a healthy life style and therefore rarely or never seeing a doctor why should we be forced to pay for health insurance at the business end of a gun? I can say the same about growing and eating your own food or buying and cooking your own food vs going to a restaurant and having that "commodity" turned into a service. Why, if I accept full responsibility for my own food would I be forced into a plan that requires me to pay into a fund so the whole country can eat out at Wendy'sThe next time you get overcharged for your car repair, remember that it's not a commodity so stop your complaining and don't even think about going someplace else, it's not in the free market if it's not a commodity, right? 

Food (agriculture) is one of the most heavily subsidized commodities in the US. Not only is it subsidized, but it's equally heavily regulated. And if you're poor, you can get food stamps, go to a food pantry, etc. Legal care is also provided for the poor for those issues that go before the court. We would not submit someone to incarceration or worse without giving them a fair trial. We also have many, many programs (also heavily subsidized) aimed at keeping people out of jail. Our government's position is that it is better to prevent crime than to deal with it.Both of your examples, food and legal care, can still be purchased privately without the federal subsidies having any negative impact on those who can afford their own. In other words, public options have not had a negative impact on the provision of either services.

In both of your examples the poor are protected with a safety net and so is their healthcare.You can purchase  all three now without penalty but if the Obama plan goes through you will pay a penalty to have your own healthcare plan and or a surtax if you have no healthcare plan at all.Why is it to be assumed that politicians know how to run the healthcare insurance business better than the private sector? Who are these people that we send to Washington? Once I realized that my Democrat team uniform was threadbare and no longer fit as well as it did when I was young I started realizing what a bunch of scum bags politicians are in general. Most of these guys have never worked a day in their lives, they've certainly never ran a business and had to meet payroll and we give them so much trust and power over every aspect of our lives. Ask anyone on the street what they think of congress and you'll get a wide range of answers but I doubt that "I trust them" will not be one of the answers. Yet we are to allow them to take care of our retirement accounts, entrust them to give us a stable money that does not depreciate in value (yeah right, they have built in their plan to devaluing our money at a  2 to 4 percent inflation) keep us safe from terror attacks keep us out of wars we do not want, protect our right to private property and now we want them to manage our health.And to those that think I am paranoid about where this could lead, just think about all of the times in the past that a politician has lied to you. Maybe it would be easier if you only think about the times that the "other side" has lied, but I assure you are being cheated by both sides but like a battered wife you just have trouble admitting it to yourself. Even IF your team leader is honest and wholesome and loves you enough to take complete and total care of you so you give up ALL control and the ability to care for yourself, I caution you to review history and realize that your team will not forever be in charge, and good and honest men do not always win tight elections. Horrible to think it but some power-hungry men might even steal an election or two if given the chance (opps, did somebody say 2000 and 2004?)Ok, my soapbox is getting a bit muddy so I think I'll hose it off and put it away for today, type at'say tonight. 

The operative words here are "cannot exceed". In other words, Insurance companies cannot place out of pocked expenses over 5000/10000 on the insured. There is nothing in those words to indicate a minimum. If that is rationing bring it on. But as I said before we ration today big time. And I wish we stop with the stupid arguments of what congressmen will be part of it or not. No one said that the public option would be the best option and everyone should want it. If you want to keep what you got... Please do. Or because someone uses the argument that people come here for specialized treatment and therefore we have the best health care system. We have US citizens going to India for specialized treatment because it is more affordable. It would be just as ridiculous to claim India was the best. There is no intellectual integrity to either or many other arguments being propagated. They are just meant as emotional triggers.

You claimed that if I like what i've got then just keep it and that is one of the biggest rubs I have with this plan. They do indeed allow you to keep your plan or switch over to the new plan. But if or when you lose or change jobs you will be forced to switch. Also the present plans will become increasingly more expensive as more people are forced out of those plan and into the government plan making the old plans too expensive to compete in the marketplace.The other thing you didn't address is what if you don't care to be in any plan. Maybe you think that's stupid but if this is still a free country then why not have that as a choice. Ok, it is a choice, but the government will ding you with a 2 1/2% surtax so it comes at a price.

I harken back to something I learned years ago about highly successful people and it seems that all have one common trait. They all accept total personal responsibility for every aspect of their lives. Even if and especially when they could easily shift the blame or responsibility onto somebody else. Even read stories about one gentleman who was rear ended at a stoplight and accepted his share of the responsibility since he decided to drive that day (didn't say whether or not he made the other guy pay for damages but that's not the point) The point is, when I accept full and unrestrained responsibility for my entire LIFE, I am the one in control, I am the winner, and I am the loser. Why that's important is when I lose, since it is I that is responsible, I can fix it. If it's someone else's fault, I'm a victim and there's nothing I can do.

I agree with conservatives that each of us has to take complete responsibility or our selves.  It is counterproductive to blame others for our problems or expect others to solve our problems.  That is the responsibility of the individual. BUT the paradox is: as individuals we have not just  responsibility to ourselves to be the best we can be but a strong obligation to the wider community in which we live, to make it a better place and as Americans to make a more perfect union.  That means we have a responsibility to provide every child with an equal opportunity to reach their potential.  We have a obligation to our fellow citizens that are less fortunate (and almost all citizens can point to those who are less fortunate)  to create a safety net and the stairs that they can climb.And where we are certain to differ is that I believe our government has a critical role to play and the more fortunate we are the bigger role we should play including though the taxes we pay.   It is not at all about control vs freedom. Note: Bradyl this is my last post on the subject.  So I think it is just about time to agree to disagree.  I am interested in your responses.  Thanks for the lively discussion.

Let me ask you this, if I accept responsibility for the health and well being of another adult have I not just injured his ability to accept full and total responsibility for him or her self? How will my being responsible for him or her help them accept responsibility?We need to teach them to be self aware and responsible and not depend on the collective.Again I ask you, should food be a right? Or are we better served by each and every one of us doing our best to be productive and be able to keep the fruits of our labors?

You've edited your last post with a note that you are ending our exchange and I want to thank you for the debate. You certainly hold your position with reason and genuine concern for the well being of your fellow man and that is to be applauded. You expressed yourself clearly and I enjoyed our exchange. I doubt that we will find much to disagree on in most issues and I want to thank you again for the chance to express my views, now I guess I'll wipe the blood off my boxing gloves and hang them up for now.See'ya on the other side of the keyboard! 

clean up on aisle 6 please.

That's actually very funny, thx for the smile! I'm serious, I enjoy the humor.

So, let's really look at what the bill says and what this website says vs the information I posted above. If we are to get at the truth we may need to get our hands dirty and not just rely on web postings to do our thinking for us.The first item checkfact.org says is a lie is page 22 (see above or download the bill) claim: audit of private business. Checkfact.org says;Begin C&P from checkfact.org False: This section merely requires a study of “the large group insured and self-insured employer health care markets.” There’s no mention of auditing employers, only of studying “markets.” The purpose of the study is to produce “recommendations” to make sure the new law “does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure.”. End C&P Ok, it does say what is in quotation marks, but that's just 11 words out of nearly a whole page that is sec 113, checkfact.org then states what the purpose is, nice of them to tell you what their intentions are, it's so much easier than thinking for yourself.Now, I guess we should start off by agreeing on the meaning of "audit" Webster's says;au·ditPronunciation: \ˈȯ-dət\

  • Function: noun
  • Etymology: Middle English, from Latin auditus act of hearing, from audire
  • Date: 15th century

1 a : a formal examination of an organization's or individual's accounts or financial situation b : the final report of an audit2 : a methodical examination and reviewIs this ok with everybody?Now let's look at what HR 3200 says;"Such study shall examine the following:(A) The types of employers by key characteristics, including size, that purchase insured products versus those that self-insure.(B) The similarities and differences between typical insured and self-insured health plans.(C) The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure by employer size.(D) The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent.(E) The extent to which rating rules are likely to cause adverse selection in the large group market or to encourage small and mid size employers to self-insure." HR 3200 sec 113 is titled "Studies" pg. 21-22 line (C) states the bill mandates a study of "The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure. Line (D) mandates a study to determine "The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent"  Now how is the government going to complete these studies unless they conduct a formal examination of an organization's accounts or financial situation or they do a methodical examination and review and if they do these two things are they not auditing according to the definition we agreed upon?  And this is just the first so called lie, shall I go on? Your call.



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